Season 3: Episode 47 - Dr. Jeremy Welsh and the University of Lynchburg

Transcripts provided by Otter.AI and may not accurately reflect the entire conversation.

Unknown Speaker  0:00  
We respectfully acknowledge the University of Arizona is on the land and territories of indigenous peoples. Today Arizona is home to 22 federally recognized tribes. With Tucson being home to the Ogden and yaki. committed to diversity and inclusion the university strives to build sustainable relationships with sovereign Native nations and indigenous communities through education offerings, partnerships and community service.

Unknown Speaker  0:33  
Welcome to this episode of the PA path podcast,

Unknown Speaker  0:37  
I'm your host, Kevin Lohenry. Glad you could join us as we seek to better understand the PA profession.

Unknown Speaker  0:49  
So someone said you want to be in this room with all of us and everyone in this room is a doctor. We're either MDS or DEOs or PhDs. We have doctors and healthcare administration we have nursing doctorates like you. And I think their term was a little certificate PA.

Unknown Speaker  1:14  
Well, hello, and thank you for joining us for episode 47. This week we speak with Dr. Jeremy Walsh, the Associate Vice President for Academic Affairs and Associate Provost for Academic strategy at the University of Lynchburg. Dr. Walsh also serves as the Dean of the College of Medical Science and was the founder of the School of PA medicine and the founder of the Doctor of medical science program. He is responsible for the university's growth, vision, innovation and structure. And I think you'll agree after listening to Dr. Wells, what an incredible innovator and just a down to earth humble man, he is a story that you heard in the quote about the doctorate is a big part of our conversation today. As always, you can learn more about our guests at our website@www.pa path. podcast.com Well, Jeremy, thank you so much for joining us today, we're really excited to learn more about the University of Lynchburg, and all the incredible things you all have been doing. From what I've been reading in your bio, it seems like you have been the instigator of many of those innovative things that Lynchburg has launched. And so we're excited to hear about that. But before we get started, we always like to ask our guests about their own personal path to becoming a PA. So could you just kind of enlighten us on what led you down that path

Unknown Speaker  2:26  
and where you ended up? Absolutely, yeah. And thank you again, for having me. I'm excited to be here and talk with you. So my path to being a PA is probably a little bit more happenstance than many. And at least, it seems now as I talk more and more with students that are applying to P pas and go to PA school and new grads, you know, they're very intentional about it were when I was looking. And you know, the conversations started back in English by 1999, I think. So, at that time, I was all over the board. I had been and firefighter and EMT and paramedic in New York for a couple of years absolutely loved the work, loved the profession, and a lieutenant and a captain and actually kind of worked to get our EMS division within the fire department kind of up and running at the time absolutely loved it. But I was worried that I wouldn't be able to do it forever. A lot of friends that were older kind of in the field that said it was kind of tough on you. And that at some point was always a great idea to have a backup plan. So I was in college at the time, and was originally went to school to become an attorney. I liked law and kind of went pre law. Poli Sci decided didn't like that and wasn't going to work for me and decided I would go undecided for a little while. And then criminal justice undecided. Then electronic Crime Investigation undecided. And then kind of by a little bit of happenstance, at the time, actually was we were called as firemen to a car accident. And it was a trauma, the card rolled over a couple of times. And I was actually the only one small enough to climb through the cars back window. The car was upside down in the ravine and I was the only one small enough to climb into the car and be able to pull the occupants out. And in doing so, I I decided hey, medicine might be something of interest to me. And I actually was an EMT only because we were so short on EMTs that they kind of begged me demanded that if I was going to be sitting around at the firehouse all the time that I had to become an EMT and not just be a fireman. So sure, I just kind of got there I had, I was far enough into college. issue with all those other majors that I went to my advisor, who I'm not even sure I had met prior to this, I was just kind of floating through undergrad and said, you know, what am I one of my options? You know, at that time, of course, I had the same 17 year old 18 year old thoughts, everybody else, like if you're going to be in medicine, the only thing I knew about was going to medical school. Yeah. So my advisor said, That's a great dream. And your grades are fine, you could do it. But you're so upside down, you're going to be taking freshman bio with, and you're going to be seen. Yes, that's okay. So I still want to graduate on time. So I was taking 2122 22 credits, during my end of my junior year, my senior year, tried to get caught up. But there was obviously a gap year that I would have had to take to take the MCAT because of when my physics would have been offered. And my advisor said hey, have you ever heard about being a PA, I had never, never heard about it knew nothing about it. And she was great about talking me through it kind of what the options were what the profession was. And I vaguely remember her talking about knowing a PA or had seen a PA some but you know, she had kind of that traditional stance of this is a great profession, you are physician, similar, but you're not a physician, what do you think? I said, Hey, you're speaking my language. This sounds great. I'm not obsessed with going to med school or being a physician. I just feel like I have a purpose in medicine. And you've made it sound good. So I did some research, but kind of on a whim, said that sounds great. I was at search University and then Utica College, and Lemoyne College had a paid program, you know, just a couple of miles up the road from where I grown up. I did not know that. My advisor again said, Hey, you want to go home. Or if you want to stay here, this is an option for you. I applied and probably due to me being a fireman in the region, I would be as my guests to why I got in because I now knowing what we as students. I don't know if I would get in now. You know, back then I talked to him during the firemen, EMT, things of that nature and was accepted.

Unknown Speaker  7:19  
Probably didn't have that clarity of passion for PA at that moment, just because you were still figuring it out.

Unknown Speaker  7:25  
I did not and I will I'll kind of round out this question with this last little story is that we went around the room after I was accepted to the mall and we went around the room and introducing each other and ourselves. And why do you want to be a PA Why do you want to be a BA and in traditional slacker mode, I sat in the back so almost everybody else in the room had gone. And they got to me and I said I honestly don't even know what a PA is. And I remember people saying how what how did you? Like why are you here? Like there's no way you don't? You're not like passionate about this in here. So it was interesting. To be able to be there. Obviously I had a great experience there. And that was life changing. And our I think it's this is my gonna be my 19th year ish. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  8:16  
Wow. So what an interesting you because you've done such an incredibly interesting things as a PA leader. What an interesting story in that you have served on admissions committees, three or four PA schools. And, you know, as I think about all my colleagues around the table and those conversations we have, I think you're right, I think it would be highly unusual for you to get into a PA school with that story. Other than Yes, firefighting, an EMT is a good background and community service oriented, etc. But with you not, you know, having had that light go off as part of your story, I think, how lucky are we as a profession that the Lemoyne faculty were, were looking at a diversity of perspectives and experiences and had the faith that they could

Unknown Speaker  9:03  
bring you along? Yeah. And if they had any clue of how much work that was going to be, I don't know if they would, it would have taken me. But yeah, it was it was interesting that it worked out and it has been such an amazing adventure. It's been such amazing joy to be part of the PA profession. I often think that my differing perspective about getting in and I'm often told I just think differently than people in general but has always given me the perspective of being able to be in the Innovate innovation, space and more entrepreneurial space because I don't traditionally think like someone medicine like I just it just hasn't been the way my brain worked. So people say all the time like, gosh, I wouldn't even thought about that. Why why do you think about those things when I would love to say I'm smart enough to answer that question. I don't know why. The way I do it. have just re and different experiences I guess through my time.

Unknown Speaker  10:05  
It's that that poli sci, criminal justice all those different pieces of the pie that contribute to a different way of thinking maybe, oh, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  10:13  
yeah. And I always have come at life that it really is an adventure. I mean, I've never, I love working, I jokingly say to my wife all the time, I should retire, I should retire. And she said you'd retire for about a day and a half, and then you'd be on the board and be back at it. So you know, I like the adventure of trying to figure things out and working through them. So it's been, it's been enjoyable. So

Unknown Speaker  10:37  
being a former medic, myself, the first thing you think about when somebody goes out experiences, you go into emergency medicine, what did you decide to do when you graduated? So that

Unknown Speaker  10:48  
absolutely was the plan, I knew that I probably did not want to be in a primary care office. And although we I don't know if Lemoyne is still had the has this, but we you know, it's not a advertised, like primary care focus program. But we did talk a lot about primary care. And there was a good strong primary care emphasis, which I think is appropriate, and places, grads in a great place to be successful. But I always felt like I just don't know if I want to do that I did keep an open mind. During rotations. I was that chameleon, for lack of better term like I'm in general surgery. I love general surgery. I'm in neurosurgery, I love neurosurgery including primary care, I really saw the value in that relationship and understanding that you are not just impacting a single person's health, you're often impacting their health or their family or their ability to provide for their family, there was just a lot more to it than then maybe how I had come into it as you know, being so trauma based as a medic is that's really kind of where you're at. So what my plan was still to be in emergency medicine. I was offered a job in emergency medicine prior to graduating I was really excited about it. It was actually in Syracuse at one of the great ers. I did love my training there and was really excited to join that team. And again, just kind of how life works out. I got a call the day before graduation, that the company had been bought out. There was a er staffing company should have been bought out by another company that did not like and I'll use this term grudgingly, but they do not like employ mid levels. They only they were kind of if you went to their website today, and probably back then if there was websites back then I'm sure there were but they were they were in their infancy. It was a board certified emergency medicine physicians only was kind of their slogan so they let go all the PAs and NPS including my already signed contract, so I never actually even stepped foot in the building as a PA the day before I graduated. So I ended up working in urgent care and some fast track for a couple years before I did make it back into that same ad when they actually sold the company back to the hospital. And and then eventually the team health. So those were the two that eventually and then I worked in emergency medicine for a while.

Unknown Speaker  13:20  
So what brought you down the education side been? Well,

Unknown Speaker  13:24  
so I'm an old school certificate pa Lemoine is a master's now but at the time we were a certificate. So you know, he's I jokingly tell my students now like, I spent a lot of money. And I did all the similar training as everybody else. But I got a pat on the back and a certificate no degree. I think the year after I graduated or two years after I graduated, someone converted to a master's degree. And it was pretty similar process to what we had. But it was a no bill for me getting that. So I think that kind of triggered in my mind will, you know having a bachelor's degree and a certificate in health care. It seemed like I would have to do more. I just I don't know why I felt that way. It is comical if I if I talked to anybody I went to high school with and early undergrad. And they would say you've been to school this many times, like you are not the academic. And that is 100% real especially in high school. I was very distracted by many, many things, but you're going off to to change the world and get a doctorate degree was definitely not on the list. So and I'm a first gen grad so my parents did not go to college. And so my parents were amazing parents and very supportive. But, you know, college was a choice if you wanted to if I wanted to do it. That was great. And if I wanted to work at a factory, you know, Syracuse at the time at Chrysler and I worked in a factory making parts for Chrysler and at 18. I made about $70,000 making parts in a factory and most of my friends In this, capture that job, it was it was a great job had phenomenal benefits, it was UAW is a great place to be. So leaving that to go to college was a very hard choice. But I just thought, you know, it just felt like it was important. So with my certificate and working in urgent care, and then emergency medicine, I very quickly felt a ceiling, I didn't feel that my opinion was always taken into account like I want it to be. And I don't know who it was at this point. But it's, it's someone finally said, Well, look around the room, look at all the people in this room, and you want to you want to be here in this room with us making decisions. So yeah, I think I have good head on my shoulders, I kind of come from that side of the world that understands kind of like the real street. So someone said you want to be in this room with all of us. And everyone in this room is a doctor. We're either MDS or DEOs, or PhDs. We have doctors and healthcare administration, we have nursing doctorates like u u. U. And I think their term was the little certificate PA, I think is. And of course, that kind of was like, Ooh, at first, it stung a bit. But then I said, Well, I'm an acid that actually is real. So I completed my Masters University, Nebraska, and like many of us did, great school, great program. And it was a you know, it was a very innovative way to for pas that were certificates like many of us to to get their master's degrees. So nice shout out to university, Nebraska. And they when I finished, you know, I came in and gave my certificate. Hey, I'm masters pa now and they're like, Wow, it's really cool. You can be on a subcommittee. You can't be on the real committee. I was like, oh, okay, well, that's interesting. And no short amount of time I ended up working in some level of administration, it was kind of very entry level. And a couple jobs came I applied for and did not get them. And I, of course, like the open dialogue with my medical director saying, Well, why didn't I qualify for those jobs? Well, you're kind of the least educated person that applied, you know, and then quickly, like with big wide eyes, that I'm not saying you're not smart, that's not what I'm saying. It's just on the credential side, you're just not there yet. But you know, keep doing what you're doing. You're doing a great job. We appreciate you all that kind of stuff. So I was like, Oh, it was interesting. Right. At that same time. ETSU launched their Doctor of Health Science program. I knew very little about it.

Unknown Speaker  17:31  
But it's something triggered, I was like, Yeah, I mean, I at that. Medical Directors, right? Like, I don't have a doctorate degree, and I can have a doctorate degree, just like in the midst of a doctorate degree. So I applied, got in and finished my doctorate. And when I did, it was still working for the same company. Well, welcome back to my dissertation niche part of the story. But I, when I had graduated, I showed them that I finished my doctorate degree. And the medical director that I worked with was very forward thinking I thought that at the time, but now looking back was really forward thinking and immediately bought me a white coat that said, Dr. Jeremy Welsh, and called me doctor in the hospital, which really did not go well with lots of other people. Yeah, just a very respectful person. And immediately I was at the boardroom. I was moved to the director of back then it was director of mid level services. Again, not a cool term, but kind of a director of VPP in the IDI. I love the work, but someone had planted a seed in my head when I was actually working through my research project and kind of dissertation defense for ETSU. I wore, I had a sports coat on, but I wasn't the kind of person that dressed up back then. So I had a sports coat on and I had a Syracuse t shirt on underneath. Okay. And you know, you're in Arizona, and somebody said, Hey, I think they're blonde. They're going to start a new PA program at Clarkson University. How's it go? Gosh, Clarkson's a awesome institution. It was known very well in searches for engineering. I did not know that they were to help and they words PA and DPP kind of was their first venture in. So they said, Would you be interested, I know that God's gonna start that program and would you be interested in helping out there's not a lot of doctorally trained pas? Would you be interested in doing it? And I was like, oh, no, like I'm, I'm a badass trauma er, Pa and, um, you know, I'm not meant for books and teaching. I'm, you know, I want to be in the throes of it. Maybe an administrator someday. Just Just think about it. Just think about it. So I said, Okay. And went back again, became an administrator at the hospital and started working. Well, I had a couple run ins with hospital administration that really, really kind of gave me a bad taste for admin and how they treated ATPs. I mean, it just, it really was a, you know, a couple of runnings that just, you know, the scarier, you know, you're not opposition you never will be. They really just did not want my insight. It didn't matter what it was about. I mean, he had, it could have nothing to do with medicine. It could be the staffing. It could have been with the schedule. It really didn't matter. I mean, I'd spent hours on something and they'd say, Well, you know, Thanks, Jeremy. But we're going to ask Dr. Smith. What stay in your lane. Right, right. Which, you know, back then there was there was probably something more colorful to say, but very similar, like, sit down Jeremy like no one cares, right. And it just really kind of annoyed me. And at the same time, I had received a couple of similar phone calls from the gentleman who had said once you help with Clarkson's program, then introduce me to the director of Clarkson's program and, you know, said, this is something you should think about something to think about. And just had a day at work. And I saw an email saying, hey, just reaching back out, and I said, I'm gonna do it, and email back and said, I'm interested, let's talk and kind of went from there ended up leaving the emergency medicine. I was kind of one with, that's not how it played out. But I went up into collections about three hours north of Syracuse, Potsdam, New York, and it was the founding DCE, for Clarkson University, which was an absolutely phenomenal experience, very appreciative of Dr. Mike Whitehead. He was the one that gave me the chance to transition into academics. Again, I did not deserve it. I had not, I had been an adjunct at Lemoyne. But I had not really didn't create a syllabus in my life. I couldn't tell you at the time, what went into one, I had no idea what arc accreditation was. And man, that was a deep one that jumped into without knowing so and then there were, there was a lot that had to

Unknown Speaker  22:00  
do with it. And all we got you into the one job right, the Director of Clinical Education that, you know, is perfect for somebody who has no knowledge of all those things.

Unknown Speaker  22:09  
Exactly. And the best part about it was they did not use director titles, there was a clinical coordinator and a didactic coordinator. Yeah. And like he reached out and said, Yeah, I'm starting to get this stuff going. You know, you're the first person since she didn't moving up here. So you know, what are your thoughts? And I said, Well, I see a lot of other programs use the term director. Can we use director, not coordinator, he said, that's kind of where I'm leaning to like that idea. So when I went up and met with him, the comical part was, I told him, I wanted to be the Director of didactic education. And I still remember his facial expression to this day, it was almost like this. Well, isn't that cute? Like? You don't have a clue what you're doing. And there's no way that we're going to have you be that again, I didn't know. I was just like, Well, it sounds interesting. So he asked me if I'd be the DC, which I did accept. And it was absolutely wonderful. It's I got to meet some absolutely funnel people. Clarkson University is a great institution. They really invested in what we're trying to do. The community there was really welcoming. Northern New York is really a big advocate for a PPS, they understand that workforce utilization, he that a lot of other hospital systems were are were slower to adopt. So it was very appreciate that experience. I knew immediately, I could not afford to stay the DCE transitioning out of emergency medicine into teaching. The salary was extremely low. It was it was a tough hit. And I didn't want to sell my home in Syracuse. So I was living in an apartment in Potsdam, and keeping my home in New York. So I very quickly transitioned back into emergency medicine at night. So I worked at Clarkson from seven to three and I worked in the IDI from three to 11. And I did that for three years. Wow. Yeah. So the high burnout at the end of the three years, it was over two weeks of it being about negative 20 in Potsdam, straight up there on the Canadian border for those listening that don't know, upstate and work well. But yeah, it can get chilly up there. Super cold and I woke up one day and said I can't do the cold anymore. And that was the catalyst to moving south.

Unknown Speaker  24:27  
It's interesting to me that your personal history of how you navigated academia and and the slights that you experience as a PA at the table, who had lived experience in that er, and in that health system, yet your input wasn't valued. Sounds like very, very little me I'm sure they they saw your, your potential, without a doubt, but you know, they continue to push you towards if you want to seat at the table, get your doctorate. So you have the degrees like we do, how much of that Do you think had a play in your decision to really push for a doctoral degree at the University of Lynchburg and, and I guess I'm bridging between the one or the other. But then I'd love to talk about the PA school as well, in terms of the entry level program. But you know, there, you've been been really out on the cutting edge of this, you and Randy Danielson and some of the others who have done the doctoral degree in PA education. Was that a big part of that that kind of chip on your shoulder that you might have gotten from those experiences?

Unknown Speaker  25:30  
Oh, I'm sure I'm sure it contributed. Absolutely. I, I will definitely say that my personality has always been one that if I see something that I don't think is working, I want to help fix it. I know that I'm not, I'm often not the smartest person in the room. But I'm really willing to work hard to help either someone else do it. Or if no one else is willing to do it. I'll I will try to figure it out. Do it for sure. Yeah. And sometimes it works great. And you know, as people say, great leaders just surround themselves with smarter and greater leaders in other positions around them. And that really is, I mean, it really is the truth. It's been the story of my success is just to find smarter people and ask them to work with me. But yeah, so I think all of those things contributed, I will say that my experience at ASU was was very impactful for me wanting to start a doctorate as well. And never ever did, I think I would be the guy that did it. I just, it was almost like a common sense thing to me. And I remember in ETSU, you know, you get a million things you can write about. And I would often write about a PA doctorate or why don't we have a PA doctorate? Or why do I have to leave being a PA to go get a PhD or EDD or some other degree in not pa Now granted, leadership is wonderful, and administration is wonderful and higher ed and whatever it is that all of our colleges look for Dr. Phil science, whatever. But I just kept saying it's hard that we don't have one. And it seems like really every other profession does. I mean, that wasn't accurate at the time, but it felt like that. Now really, every profession does. And we still were probably one of the last ones to get to that gate, especially because our profession says and adopted it as a statement of importance. I mean, it's heavily discussed, and I'm very appreciative of that. But as a profession, we haven't come out and said, you know, doctorate is important, we say, if it's important to you, it's good for you. But it may not be for the profession. And that's obviously a touchy topic for lots of people. Great, so included.

Unknown Speaker  27:35  
I was one of those that looked at you, Jeremy, when you first started this with skepticism, and I'm just being honest, I was I put on my old school pa hat like I'm battled. But I'm still not convinced that we need to have an entry level doctorate for the profession, although I'm opening up to the idea. But I am convinced that I'm often wrong and need to be more reserved in my thought process rather than just immediately go into that old school heart. So I totally get where you're coming from run on people like

Unknown Speaker  28:02  
me. Well, and again, it wasn't because I thought I had the solution, either. I mean, I think sometimes there's assumptions that like I started the doctorate because, you know, there was this internal passion and I had to as a person had to have it. And that's, that's not real. I mean, really what happened was at ETSU, a lot of us talked about it. And if you notice the faculty that are part of the Doctor of medical science with us at the University of Lynchburg, many of them graduated with me or graduated the year after me. And this really was like, the best scenario college project that you could ever tell a story about, because we all got together and said, This is something that would be great, we should do it. We all high fived each other graduated and moved on off to you know, back to life and, you know, got going and many of us ended up in senior leadership hospital administration, we became faculty members, and then kind of got back together at some point. But I mean, we, we, we started in oh eight graduated in 10. But some of us in 11, because you could do a two year or three year path, and they don't, no one really does to your path anymore. But back then you could do it. So we just worked through it and thought it would be this great adventure. And then we had the opportunity. So when I decided to leave upstate New York, it was not necessarily to start a doctorate. That really was not the intention. I will say it was discussed a lot at Clarkson. So I don't want to pretend that it never came up there. And we had some great faculty members there. And a lot of very forward thinkers. We talked a lot about it. It was not at the time the decision that was made there. So when I decided I was going to go off to the world, the honest truth was it wasn't even because I felt like I had to be a program director. I just felt like my my ability to have an impact had kind of slowed up It I was really tired from having to work during the day at the institution and then at night in the hospital. But the hospital was fun. They had never used pas in the IDI. So I got to build their system, their protocols, became the directory pieces services and got to like, write the protocols and really build that system in which I was very appreciative. I loved it, I had a very, very supportive collaborating physician at the time and her and I actually ended up going into business later and started in urgent care and did a bunch of other stuff. So I mean, we had a great working relationship. But I could tell that my, my impact was going to be limited, I could see that coming shortly, there was not going to be the ability to have impact that I was I personally thought I could could have. So when I left, I was really just looking for the next adventure. And that really is true. It's it's how I've lived my my life really like what's what's the next adventure. I'm excited to try it and see where it goes. And, and the interesting part of it was so many programs that I talked to, really were kind of classified me as being under qualified to join the faculty. Oh, my goodness, wow. Because I talked to a bunch of programs up and down the East Coast. I mean, I just knew I wanted to be warmer, but I didn't have a destination in mind. It definitely was not Virginia, I had not actually spent any time in Virginia prior to moving here. I planned on hopefully landing in Florida, southern Georgia, I love the heat. If there had been a program in the US Virgin Islands or something at the time, I probably would have applied to it because I was really looking forward to some warmth at the time we had to thaw out. Yeah, yeah, I was I was done with the cold. So people I mean, the feedback was Thank you, but no, thank you. We don't know, if you're, you know, you're you're not really an academic. Like you don't have pages of publications, you're not I was not really involved much in APA or Ph EA, you know, I was not a known name. For to definitely be truthful about it, no one had a clue who I was, which was fine. That's often how I tried to navigate. But so I was skeptical to apply to be a program director. But in an effort to kind of see what the opportunities were I went to PA EA, and actually don't remember where it was located that year, but went to PA EA and there was a woman walking around with a T shirt on that said program director wanted Oh crafting? I know it's awesome advertisement. And I was like well, that's kind of cool. And it's, you know, I probably would not have approached her. But at some point I used to get the best of you or Yeah, like we ended up standing right next to each other or in line for something. And I turned around and I said something like, that's awesome. Sure. Like, are you actually looking for a real program director? Is that? Are you just being sassy? You know? And she was like, No, we actually look, we really are looking for a program directors. So that's really cool. Where are you located? And it was at JMU as a James Madison University. Sure. Yeah. And it was after their longtime director who I think had built the program and really got it up and running, was was retiring. So they were kind of out there looking for a new person to join the team. So I said, Well, that's really interesting.

Unknown Speaker  33:26  
Tell me about it. Tell me about it. And she she told me about the school, she talked about the program. I thought she's like, You need to go go to the website, it's on PE we have to advertise like or go to gym you like, take a look, I think you'll really enjoy it if she was really, really nice. But, you know, I think she was also like, I'm not sure he qualified. But I mean, you should take a look at the job. So I thought, hey, I wanted to take a look. So I went to the website and took a look, it was a cool place. You know, now I'm very fond of them. I know their their director very well now, but at the time, I didn't know anything about him. But as I was scrolling at the time pas website was was by state so and I don't think that's true anymore. But at the time, I clicked and went to that area looked at JMU and rate underneath JMU was that Lynchburg College. And I thought well, I guess if I'm going to head south and think about it, and this JMU opportunity, I wasn't sure if it would go anywhere, not advisable. Call the one that's right next to it and see what they're looking forward to. So I talked to Lynchburg College and right away, it felt really good. You can just tell those conversations that feel good. I could see that they were really excited about building something that was not going to be cookie cutter. And I think that was their turn, which I was appreciative of because a lot of the other programs that I had talked to at that point, they just kept saying, well, there's this ark standard thing and that's the Bible of what we do and you just have to meet it. And I was like, Oh do we just Wanna Meet the bare minimum? Or could we build something really cool? And they're like, listen, these things are expensive. And we're not really interested in breaking the mold here. So just get it going get it up and running meet the bare minimum. And someday, like, maybe it'll be fancy. And I was like, Oh my gosh, it's just, they're really not selling this thing. But when I talked to them for college, they said, Well, we honestly don't know anything about any of this. This was a board of trustees thing, we were asked by the local hospital to start a PA program. So we know nothing, you'd be the expert, you'd be the person building it, you can build it as big as you want, as small as you want, as fancy as you want. So I knew nothing and never had stepped foot on campus was a phone interview this way before we were doing anything virtual. And, you know, we did a phone interview. And I said, Okay, thanks, hung up, they hung up. And I thought, that's really cool. I wonder if it'll go anywhere. And I kind of sat down and sketched out a couple things that I would want. And I made a couple of calls to friends that have been program directors and other places. I said, here's some things you should ask about. So they called me back a couple days later, and they said, you know, we liked what you said, we'd like to your excitement. You're kind of calling us when we're in the last phases of our interview process. Like we already have two candidates that we probably would have made an offer to, but we're willing to slow it down a bit. If you can come down here, quickly. And so we're talking that's a 13 ish hour drive from upstate New York. So I'm like, Okay, well, sure. But here's some things I want. And I said, Well, you don't have the job yet. You know, like, you don't usually get to request things yet. And I said, I know. But if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it the way that I want. And this is kind of me asking, so they said okay, I said I, I hate the term. And sorry, if anybody's listening, including myself, who has this title, I said, I don't want to give a degree in studies. I don't like the term, if we're going to do it, then we're going to give a degree in medicine, it can be pa medicine, it can be masters of medicine, like whatever it is, but I'm not going to I don't want to have a program. That's pa studies, I don't understand that, like you studied to get a degree you don't get a degree in studying. And they laughed. And they're like, again, I kind of felt that similar facial expression that people give me every once in a while. It's like, well, that's cute. But we're like, we're not really going to do that. And I said, I want you I'll sign an NDA, but I want you to send me the institutional finances, I understand that the institution can afford to do this. And if you're doing this, that's a last ditch effort to keep the liberal arts small school out of the bankruptcy stage. I don't really want to move to do that. And they said, Well, we're not going to, we're not going to do that. I said, well think about it. And I said, and if I come I want to start a doctorate degree, I don't want to do a master's degree. And they said, That doesn't even make sense. Why would you get a doctorate in assisting? That was literally. And I was like, Well, I mean, that might be the answer that like, yeah, we weren't your hands of that. Okay, right. And like, we might not be

Unknown Speaker  37:54  
married happily ever after like that, that's probably not the answer I'm looking for. So think about it. They called me back two weeks later. And they said, they gave me two of the three, they changed the degree to masters of pain medicine, they had me sign an NDA and actually gave me the institutional finances. And they were in a great place. It wasn't, it wasn't a last ditch effort. It actually was charged by the Board of Trustees from the Board of Trustees at the hospital. And they said, We will let you start a doctorate. We don't even know what that means. But we will support you after one year of the Masters being open. Sure, we do want you to get that one up and running first. So I said, Well, we'll see. But yeah, I'll accept it. And we'll see what we do. And kind of going down interviewing and obviously the rest of its history, we did accept it. We ended up launching the doctorate or much earlier than they had initially told me I could but

Unknown Speaker  38:51  
don't take no for an answer very easily. Do you

Unknown Speaker  38:53  
know I don't want I don't necessarily always like the asking for forgiveness thing, because I don't really like those conversations either. But I definitely persistent. Persistent. Yeah, definitely persist.

Unknown Speaker  39:05  
I have to believe I mean, not that this is probably born listeners, but just from I'm always treated by leadership. And I have to believe that whoever was on the hiring process, the the search committee, the chair, whoever had those initial conversations with you probably took this back to the president or the provost and said, What do you get a load of this, this guy thinks he's gonna get a look at our finances. This guy wants to do this, you know, I mean, we have two good candidates. Let's just go with the two good candidates. And it really smart Provost are really smart president said there's a difference in this candidate, and he is thinking in a different way. And that's something we should actually guide you. And we should actually consider and that's probably I have to believe that it was the higher leadership that that got this. And I don't want to you know, undersell the person that made the decision to reach out to your that interviewed you but That is a very audacious thing to do. And yet, I think it's perfectly appropriate.

Unknown Speaker  40:05  
And you know, it is interesting. And I know this is not unique to me or to this scenario. But I think when you do go into a position when you're negotiating from a position of you don't necessarily care if you get the job, like I knew that if it worked out, it was going to be an amazing adventure. But I also knew that if it didn't work out, something else would work out, and it was going to be okay. I had never stepped foot in Lynchburg, Virginia, I honestly, you know, people hate me for saying this. But even the name of the town, I was like, I don't know if I want to be there. Like, that's just the name of the tunnels, like that just seems like a weird place. And I'm from upstate New York and never heard of it. So just as I was okay, with wherever I landed in that scenario, it is interesting, of course, after you are offered the job, and then you land in town, and you're building, then then they opened up a little bit, and they did. I mean, they they really razzed me and said, like your initial requests, were just so ridiculous. And so out there that we were almost forced to pay attention. Because we're thinking either this person is really going to come here and build something that is just going to change the world or this guy is just not stable. said Well, can I be both? Like is it okay?

Unknown Speaker  41:23  
Yeah, it's good to ride the ride the rail a little bit. So yeah, all right. Well, let's let's talk more about the school itself. So if I'm a prospective applicant, give me your universe, and you're not University of Lynchburg, correct. Is that Lynchburg? College anymore.

Unknown Speaker  41:36  
Correct. 2008, we transitioned. And actually, because of the Doctor of medical science, that ended up being the third doctorate offer, which qualified the institution to be a University and the Board of Trustees made the decision to try adventure,

Unknown Speaker  41:49  
they were very happy about that. So I'm a prospect of African thinking about the enrichment, Lynchburg. What's your typical pitch about the school and how to be a strong applicant?

Unknown Speaker  42:01  
Well, the strongest applicants for us we tell everybody is, I want you to pretend every single person that applies including you have a thorough every single person applies, including you have perfect GRPs, every person that applied, including you is just set and ready and speaks to our mission. Now, what makes you different, and that really is what we look for we want, you know, people that value service, we want people that have gone on mission trips that work in a homeless shelter. And I know this isn't necessarily always unique to us. I know a lot of programs really transition to this way of thought, but we, I feel like there's a lot of people in medicine, what are what your credentials are, that are going to be really good and understanding history and physical on the CBC and making your diagnosis and having a great differential. But truly understanding that healthcare is a position of service, and that we're really here to be able to try to make life better for someone or some family or, you know, that's the difference. And I think when we lose sight of that, and this is, hey, I do this, because it's a six figure job. And I you know, I really want to only work nine to five, and I don't want to do this, and I don't want to do that. I think that's where we start to build some of the cultural issues that we have in healthcare now. And again, that's not unique to the PA profession. Apathy is widespread through healthcare right now. And I think it does contribute to kind of some of the issues we have, we've always looked for, for people that really want to make that difference. And we're trying to be intentional about that. We also look for students, applicants and future grads who are interested in leadership and advocacy. Some of my I'm currently the immediate past president of Virginia Academy pas, and had served on the board in in Virginia since I moved to Virginia. So you know, coming up on 10 years now, and I've so I've talked all over Donnelly, Virginia, but then in other roles talked all over the country with PA programs in PA grads or PA students or soon to be PA students, and very few of them have ever been talked about leadership. And that, you know, leadership starts in the patient's room, you know, being a leader for lifestyle modification, being a leader and making good choices and being a leader and educating so that the student or the patient is in control of their future and you're there to educate them and be a partner. So we look and are very intentional about leadership and advocacy and understanding that that's truly at the core of what we should be doing. It's not an afterthought. I don't know how many students have told me Well, yeah, I'll once I'm a PA and I have a salary and I've paid off my student loans and I bought a house and I have my car and 2.5 kids in a white picket fence, then I'm gonna get interested in leadership I was telling Well, I think unfortunately, then it might be too late. You might have missed numerous great opportunities to have a positive impact. So that's really kind of our key at the the masters and the entry level side.

Unknown Speaker  45:05  
Okay, so in terms of the doctoral applicants, so a lot of our PA educator colleagues around the country have, and I've had actually grads from USC that went into medical residency and post grad residency programs and emergency medicine, orthopedics who have a collaborative agreement with your university to get a doctorate as part of that residency program or postgraduate fellowship. So as you're looking at applicants from the PDA body, if you will, what what are you looking for in those folks that are applying to your dmsc? Well, a

Unknown Speaker  45:37  
lot of that is not different from the from the Masters side, absolutely looking for people that are interested in moving our profession forward. I think we, we love our profession, I'm very proud of being a PA. But I don't like the apathy that I do really think exists. I don't like that a lot of the PA profession is still okay, with kind of being in a subservient role. It may It shocks me that I and as I say it out loud, I'm like, gosh, people are gonna not like what I just said that. But I mean, it really is true that I don't know how many times I talk, and people will say I'm okay with people calling me mid level, as long as they pay my salary, and they don't bother me on the weekends. Like, I don't care what they call, and I'm thinking like, that speaks to, again, the culture of what we're trying to do. If you're okay with being mistreated, as long as you're allowed to practice medicine, we are never going to have the impact that we can have. Because you already see yourself as being allowed to do something like you worked hard to be a PA, you worked hard to get that license, you worked hard to get your degree, then you're well educated to be in a position to have a positive impact. And if you're constantly afraid of someone taking it away from you, then you're never going to function at the highest level. And that's just my opinion. So we in when we're talking to people about the doctrine, talking to people about being able to have that impact, I've always truly felt that education is the key to being able to have an impact. It's not the only key. And there's lots of great people out there that are that do not have a masters or a doctorate, who have had absolutely phenomenal impact for patients or practices constituency organizations, a PA, I mean, absolutely. So it's never any of anybody that does not have a master's or doctorate degree. But I think it is a tool to be able to have an impact and to especially to open the door to be in the room to have an impact. Because I've always felt, and we talked to a lot in the doctorate about this, and the people that are applying is that, you know, the doctorate sometimes, and I'm stealing this from one of our grads, I've always liked how he said it, and I'll probably mess it up. And I'll try to say it as similar as I can. But having a doctor, it's like a membership card, if you pay for the membership card, you stick in your wallet and never use the membership cards maybe isn't worth it, maybe it doesn't have any value, use that card to enter the room, then you're in a place where you can have that impact. And I was appreciated that statement. And I think it's really true. I mean it if everybody else in the room is a doctor MDD or other doctors, then it's really just to be able to be present. It's not because they're smarter than us or we're smarter than that. It's just about being in the in the right space. So we talk a lot about that. And we want people to see that we want people to value that we talk a lot about the use of the title of doctor, you know, I'm a big advocate for people that have a doctor to use the title. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I don't encourage anybody to obviously ever misrepresent themselves, which is immediate, what naysayers go to well, you're gonna misrepresent yourself. I mean, our our patients at first our patients are very smart people. And yeah, by saying I'm a doctor, and I'm a doctor and this, you know, chiropractors have been doing it for years, optometrists have been doing it for years. There's no one is like, upset at the optometrist. So if the gentleman, the gentleman that makes my glasses is a doctor, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a PA or an NP being a doctor, there's definitely nothing wrong. And in any other setting, we'd want everyone on a team to be the most highly educated, most impactful participant, right? Like, we don't have great sports teams, they have one great player and the other for like, oh, yeah, I'm just gonna chill. I don't really want to have to contribute at a high level. Right? Right. Those are great points. And then maybe those teams exist, but we don't know about them, because they're not making the impact that they could be making. So why wouldn't you want a team filled with impactful, highly educated people, but, you know, we, the turf wars and pushback is I think what gets in the way. So we talk a lot about this with people that are interested in the doctorate degree. We talk even more about it in the doctorate degree. So we tried to make sure that people really are out there trying to utilize it to the best of their ability.

Unknown Speaker  49:44  
So I have to give you some credit because one of my colleagues went through your program when I was at sea and the transformation that I saw in her thinking her strategic thinking her out of the box thinking it was it was remarkable, you know think what you've put together is really, really interesting. So congratulations.

Unknown Speaker  50:04  
Yeah, well, first, we, I appreciate that I will also give that credit back to our grads, because I think a lot of the our graduates, our students, and our graduates, they come in with that, you know, our job there is to help them unlock it. And to put them in scenarios where they think, like they are the CEO, they think like, they will be the be all and end all of a decision. And it may be a million dollar decision and might be a life changing decision and might be a decision that impacts workforce utilization for a whole team of PAs that, you know, or nurses or physicians. So, yeah, I think those are some of the tools that we really like to talk with our students about. Because I, I proudly say that I think once you've gone through PA school, you really are in a position that you have such a great, great set of skills. Unfortunately, depending on which program you went to, and what environment you immediately land in, some of that can be stifled because you are told you are the second to the physician, and you are told you are the person that needs supervision. And you're told by the Board of Medicine, well, it's not safe for you to do XY and Z without a physician signing off on it, or whatever it is. And I think that slowly plants that seed of doubt, that idea of like, oh, you know, I don't want to make a mistake. And I hear it so often, like maybe it is an issue of safety if I don't have a collaborating physician. So, you know, we really try intentionally in the doctor to say, set all that stuff aside, you're going to be the top of the chain of the pyramid, whatever. How would you make the decision? And who do you bring in? And how do you strategically look at things, you know, strategic design or strategic thinking, design thinking all terms that kind of mean the same stuff? I mean, that's big. I think it's often the way that I have thought, I think it's probably what led led me to be the Chief Innovation Officer at the university, which is has nothing to do with healthcare, or medicine that definitely shows truly around design thinking and figuring out ways to approach problems that people don't traditionally see. And, you know, I wanted to say, look at how unique it is. But I wanted, I also told everybody, well, this is kind of what we do in the doctorate or we we teach people how to think in a way that is maybe a little bit different, you know, and it's it's often why and I applaud our legal colleagues that are lawyers and attorneys. But I mean, a lot of law school is just teaching you how to think different, it's just showing you a way to think that often other people's don't, other people don't. And when you can use that in the day to day, you know, you often can see a couple steps ahead of where others might be thinking.

Unknown Speaker  52:48  
Yeah, and I just want to echo what you said. I mean, when I was when I was a Associate Program Director at Midwestern University in Illinois, I had a dean Dennis Paulson, he is a great guy. He was born in Wisconsin, so you get that deep Wisconsin accent and that love for packers, which is a Chicago guy was not simpatico, but But he basically he just, he was very blunt, he's like, if you want to be at the table, you got to get your doctor. And if you get your doctorate, you'll be at the table. It's that simple. And and I you know, when I don't know that it really because I finished my PhD in 2010. And then I left for USC and USC, you know, their medical schools have very traditional, has been historically a very traditional medical school. And immediately I was at the table with all of these brilliant people talk about impostor syndrome. You know, these folks are graduating from Stanford and from Harvard and from Yale, and they're, you know, they're designing, they're getting these $3 million awards for ophthalmology and other things and, and yet your opinion perspectives are valued because you have that membership card. So I think I was very resistant to it as a as the guy who got a Bachelor's as a PA, a Master's at Nebraska. I was like, what do I get another degree for? I know what I'm doing. But I can say, with all honesty, I learned, I've learned so much from that experience, and then being invited in the room that normally we wouldn't be able to be part of. So I applaud you and commend you for your work.

Unknown Speaker  54:16  
Yeah, well, thank you. And it's, and it really was a team. I mean, I can't say enough how much I appreciate and really, you know, I've always got it Oh, all the people I went to school with ETSU and then got a lot of them came to work with me on the faculty because it was really that kind of brainstorming across the different ideas and opinions that I think gave me the ability to get up and say fine, we're going to do something about it. So I really appreciate all of them for everything they invested. And I will say that I wish more pas with the doctorate would share those stories because I do think that that is a very similar story for many of us. What I when I left To our master's students and our doctoral students, I say all the time, I mean, sometimes we're too pa centric, like we think like a PA, which in clinic is great. But outside of clinic, we have to be a little our brain, the way we think can't always be pa centric, you have to understand what other people in the room will see, as a perspective, you have to understand that in many senses, we should always value it. Because it helps us to strategically be ready to work with them towards greater goals, or to be able to resist when they're pushing on something that would change our scope or something like that. And I think that that truly is part of the doctor's understanding that, you know, if you're, and I use this example, in real life, if I worked for an insurance company I worked for, I won't name any of them, because they'll they'll find us and be mad at me. But if I worked for any healthcare insurance company, and I'm thinking I gotta save some money, would it make perfectly good sense just to say, well, who's the least educated person? Let's pay them less? And everyone says, that'll never happen? I'm not sure hope it doesn't. But I don't make that decision. So if somebody did you know, when they already push on paying pas and NPS at 85%, because we're not positioned? Well, if at some point, they said, Well, if you don't have a doctorate degree, we have the right to, to reimburse less too. What can we do about it? I mean, so we always have to be one step ahead of what other people may be thinking about.

Unknown Speaker  56:20  
So what's fascinating for me about this is like, alright, as a profession, I think, you know, growing up in the profession, being in the academic world, since about 2001, seen that kind of desire to produce great clinicians and the admissions conversations, it's about what they'll do for the clinical world. And I think nursing and other professions have done such an amazing job of doing exactly what you're touting, which is looking for how are people going to contribute to society in a greater realm than just yes, we want them to be great clinicians, but great clinicians also possess the ability to observe and and assess data and evaluate and come up with innovative ideas or solutions to problems that their patients are facing. And so I wonder if you've seen that shift in your own programs, that is allowing exactly what you talked about his doctorate is x is always considered, you're an expert, you're a master, you've reached the pinnacle of your area of research or area of practice. Have you seen that in your programs where that attitude has contributed to a very different outcome, the kind of PAs you graduate are different, they have a different tool belt,

Unknown Speaker  57:33  
I do think the curriculum and the environment that we attempt to create in the doctor medical science is is really intentional to try to empower our our grads, and it's to empower them to think in a way that other professions have been thinking about, and for a long time. And if you imagine it, I mean, you know, and maybe I'm gonna get some of the details of this story wrong. But I'm paraphrasing, someone can correct me later. But you know, why the original version of PA, which wasn't pa at the time was not accepted by the nursing model was because nurses were not going to be owned by somebody else. So then they revamped it. And Duke accepted it. And it was under the physician ownership, the other idea went off and became the nurse practitioner. Sure. And if you think about that, nurses are very clear that they are owned by nursing. Physicians are owned by physician organizations. And yet, we are always somewhere where it's like we're almost okay being owned by somebody else at any given time. And I think that is truly the difference, we need to define our own value. If you allow someone else to define your value, it'll never be the way you see yourself, it'll never be at the top of how you feel you can have an impact, we define our value. And I think that's the way we need to think it's the way we need to train all PA students in masters or doctorate degrees, you will own the PA profession someday contributed at a high level, be a good leader understand advocacy, and be ready to stand up and make good choices. But we I think sometimes we have had programs and we have had leadership where we did not want to piss off our physician colleagues, we're always gentle with what we say we're very calculated, because we don't want someone to take something away from us. And I think that climate, the way we feel about a culture is because we've allowed it to be that way. Like we respond, because this is how we've been trained to respond. And I think that's where we have to take it back. We have to be ready. And I'm not saying go to battle with our physician colleagues. I don't even think that's necessary. I really don't I mean, we are here to try to accomplish great things with them. It's not we don't want to eliminate physicians, that's absolutely ridiculous, but they shouldn't want to eliminate us and you know, so I think that's we need to get to a different place. And that's all about the way you think it's really about the way you think and the way you want to contribute. So I do think our grads are different, but I also I'm also not the person who dislikes the other doctorates. I'm sure they're doing a lot of that same work. You know, I applaud all the other programs that have come online. And and really, you know, some of them have gone, you know, heavier into research or heavier into clinical practice. And that diversity is what will make us strong. And so I appreciate and applaud all of them for doing that. I'm not the guy that was like, Well, we did it first and everybody else is, you know, second, that's not the point. It's that we make our profession better and make our profession stronger. And the more we do this as the united group, the better. I do wish at some point, we had kind of owned the title and degree, that's a whole different story for maybe a different podcast day, but But yeah, there's some ownership there that I wish we'd taken back

Unknown Speaker  1:00:34  
in the day. But your argument about the physician aspect, right? I mean, we, it's interesting to me, because when I started in practice, I had a really innovative supervising physician that I started with in 96. He was a top Chicago doc, and he wanted a PA because he was turning away 30 patients a day to the urgent care and no slammed in my urges your colleagues, but but a primary care model, you're losing that continuity of care, unless they're continuing to see the same providers in the urgent care potentially, man, maybe maybe I'm feeling closed minded on that. But instantly, those you know, 20 to 30, people that are being turned away, suddenly saw a physician extender, a Advanced Practice provider in his office, and he and I sat right next to each other, we would bounce off cases with each other. So it's interesting that we're not good enough to be colleagues, physician associates, if you will, but we're good enough to take care of your patients. You know, your 30 People are coming to see me instead of you. That's why you hired me that revenue staying in the practice. And I'm not saying Scott was against that he was way ahead of his time. But I think those physician colleagues out in the community that continue to put their thumb on our profession, show me the data that says that we're dangerous, that's not there. And if that were the case, why are so many of your colleagues hiring us to be extenders of practice to increase access to care for your patients?

Unknown Speaker  1:01:51  
You're spot on? I mean, I don't I don't really understand it. I mean, I'm a relatively straightforward, blunt person, if that's not coming through at this point, you know, I think it's all that's those are some physicians that really feel the need to control the practice of medicine, the ownership of it, I mean, it's it. And I understand that there's always individuals that do things that are poorly thought out. But you know, being in the different roles that I've been in, of course, lots of people forward you screenshots of what physicians are saying and physician groups specifically about, you know, slamming a PPS. And I often email back and say, you know, physicians that are confident and competent in what they're doing, have no issues with a VPS. Yeah, physicians that lash out, it's often a statement about their own practice their own concerns, their own inability to control the environment around them. And, you know, what do they do, they lash out at the ATP, you know, if you're, if you're unhappy in the medical system, change the medical system, and work in a positive way to change the legislature legislation or to get in front of the Board of Medicine, but coming and kicking us isn't going to change anything. So you know, I often just kind of push it aside, it's one of the things I get a lot of feedback from, from colleagues, which I like I'm a person that actually likes all feedback, even if it's not positive feedback, just grow and learn. If people say all the time like Jeremy, one of the things you do wrong, is you don't you're not present online, you don't comment on blogs, you don't have social media, you know, I think it's important to know your strengths. Those are not my strengths. I'm not, I'm not an online blogger. You know, it's it's not some I placed for sometimes, but, you know, I'm happy to sit down with anybody and talk about the details. I've I've appreciated that the phba sat down with me a couple times and wanted to talk through the details via EA, I was very appreciative and really do give them credit that when I first went public with the doctorate, they flew me to Stowe, Vermont, and I visited with the board about what we were, we were trying to build a university. And there were two other of our colleagues that were there with me and y'all got to talk about, you know, what the doctor is and how we think it'll have a positive impact and whatnot. So, you know, I think there are organizations that are out there that really want to see change. I think there's there's others that you know, I'm not sure sometimes I understand I'm not in the room, and that's okay, I have great faith in our some of our leaders so I think it's important that they're they're making those decisions people ask me all the time, well, are you going to make this an entry level? And I said, Geez, I don't have the power to do that. Like I'm one person, you know, I'm, I'm here to try to make the best impact I can but if our profession goes one direction or not, I mean, I can I can try to help and influence but I'm not making Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  1:04:37  
Jeremy, I really appreciate your time and your insights. It's been really interesting to hear your perspectives and finally here at one on one instead of through word of mouth, which is a good leadership lesson, right? You know, you've given us several leadership lessons that triggered me today as a leadership geek. One is surround yourself with people that are smarter than you that is a surefire way of being successful. You know, I love to give people meaningful autonomy and responsibility and the tools and resources to be successful and get out of the way, listen, instead of waiting to speak, listen to to understand. And I appreciate all that we always give our guests one last opportunity to share anything they're hoping to share that we didn't talk about. So I want to give you that chance.

Unknown Speaker  1:05:20  
Yeah, well, thanks. And thanks, again, for reaching out, I'm, you know, I'm excited to be here. And I appreciate the time, you know, I think I really kind of hit on the things that I think are important, but I will say over and over again, I think all of us need to be leaders, it doesn't matter what your your degree is behind your name doesn't matter if you're a single condition or in a large group, but we have to have a voice that speaks in a positive manner about the PA profession and what we're trying to do that we're there for the patients that we truly are the patient centered care, although many other people use it as a bumper sticker buzzword now, you know, we've been doing it for a long time, and we should be proud of that. So you know, my statement is Be proud of who you are, and continue to use your voice to try to improve everything around you. Because, you know, someday, we won't be there. And, you know, we want that that impact to be that we were we were there for the betterment of everyone. Yeah, leave the world a better place than where you found it. So, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker  1:06:16  
Well, I'd like to thank our guest, Dr. Jeremy Walsh for sharing his insights about his program and about the doctoral movement that can be education. What a truly interesting interview, I really enjoyed getting to know Jeremy and his vision for the profession. Tune in next week as we speak with Cynthia Lord. Pa Lord has been a PA program director for over 28 years. She is a national leader, a former president of the American Academy of Physician Assistants, as well as the Connecticut Academy of Physician Assistants. She's a member of the NCCP Health Foundation Board of Directors and was the chair and immediate past chair for that organization. And she also served on the board of directors for the International Association of Medical science educators. Cindy is going to talk with our own Stephanie VanderMeulen we have two hockey moms talking about life as pas and mothers and it is a must listen episode.

Unknown Speaker  1:07:15  
Until next time, we wish you success with whatever path you're watching in life. And thank you for joining us. The purpose of this podcast is to provide news and information on the PA profession and is for informational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official position or policies of the University of Arizona.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai